Ep #322: Receiving Referrals from Around the World

Stacey Brown Randall: We all understand that the world is very virtual now, more than it has ever been before. So how does this impact receiving referrals? I’m so glad you asked.

Hey there, and welcome to episode 322 of the Roadmap to Referrals podcast, a show that proves you can generate referrals without asking or manipulation. I’m your host, Stacey Brown-Randall. My journey from a business failure to a successful business now 10 years in, I know generating referrals naturally and consistently has made all the difference. Working with clients around the world, we leverage the science of referrals, protect relationships above all else, and help you build a referable business.

I am very excited to introduce you today to Phil Crowley. He is one of the members of my coaching program, Building a Referable Business, and he is now in his second year with me.

I love it when my clients inside the coaching program continue on with me. We call it the maintenance plan. It’s where they keep getting access to me so they can keep having the ability to ask questions and keep their referral strategies going year after year if they want to.

I’ve always built BRB, the coaching program, so that after a year, you’re supposed to graduate. Like, that’s always been the point. But the truth is some people want to keep having access. And so we offer what we call the maintenance plan.

It’s just our renewal option. Maybe maintenance plan isn’t the best positive word that I could use to describe it. It’s just what I picked. So it is how we handle renewals within our coaching program. And some people renew, and some people don’t. And that is good as long as they get what they need while they are with us.

So Phil is in his second year with me, and I’m excited for you to listen to our conversation about how he is generating referrals from referral sources that are not based in his home country. And his home country is the United States. He is an attorney. He’s going to share a little bit about what he does, which is great.

But I really want you to pay attention to how, he does have a little bit of a dual referral source base, I would say. There are some, of course, that are United States based, but he works with clients across the pond, so to speak.

And so he has referral sources that are not even, not only are they not local to him, they’re not even in the United States, and they are international.

And so people ask me from time to time, hey, does the process work for referral sources, whether they’re local or not? And I’m like, yes. Do we modify things? Of course. And you’ll hear that a little bit in the conversation that Phil and I have.

But I think it’s really important that you understand, and I want you to be able to hear it when you’re understanding what Phil talks about how he’s generating referrals, and the amazing success that he had, but that I want you to keep in mind he’s doing that with people who he cannot go have coffee with. They are not just right down the street. They are not in his town. They are not in his city.

And so, we take what I teach within my strategies, and we are able to apply them for wherever your referral sources are, of course with some modifications. And you’ll hear Phil talk about also like some of the things that surprised him that he’s still a year and a half in I would say now, maybe he was just when we recorded this episode he was probably just had renewed and was a couple months into his second year with me.

But it’s interesting because you’ll hear him talk about things that he’s still wrapping his mind around like, oh yeah, that’s right. I’m getting that result because I’m doing this. And you’ll hear me talk and remind him a little bit about like, you think it’s that, but it’s really this because you’ve been doing this.

And so I recognize and I respect the fact that when people come into working with me and they start seeing it happen, like sometimes it takes a little bit longer to be like, oh right, that’s because I’m doing the thing I’m supposed to be doing. So you’ll hear Phil and I talk about that too and it’s awesome.

So again, here is Phil. I’m going to link to all the ways that you can contact Phil if you are interested and want to learn more about him. He is an amazing attorney and I love having him in the program, but I’ll link to all his information on the show notes page for this episode, which is StaceyBrownRandall.com/322 for episode 322. Okay, let’s get to the interview with Phil.

Stacey Brown Randall: Phil, I’m so excited to welcome you to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Phil Crowley: I’m very glad to be here, Stacey. I’ve got a lot out of your program and want to really enjoy the opportunity to talk a bit about it.

Stacey Brown Randall: Oh, well, I’m excited for us to dive into that. But first, let’s make sure those listening know who you are. So will you tell everyone a little bit about your business and what you do?

Phil Crowley: Sure. I am the managing partner of Crowley Law. We’re a boutique law firm. We are passionate about helping life sciences and other technology entrepreneurs realize their dreams. Basically, to take great ideas from the laboratory bench to the patient’s bedside or from the garage or the dining room table out to the marketplace to enrich the lives of thousands or millions of people.

I’m a former physicist. I refer to myself as a recovering physicist who wanted to have the feeling that I was helping people in a more direct way than I could through my physics research. And I found a home for the past 40 plus years in doing just that.

Stacey Brown Randall: I think that’s incredible. I think hearing people’s stories about like how they arrived at where they are with what they’re doing. It’s like when I first met you, I never would have guessed you were a recovering physicist. And now, because to me, you’re an attorney, right?

Like, yeah, he’s an attorney. He does life science work, and this is awesome. And then you’re like, yeah, and he was a physicist. You’re like, oh my gosh, how smart is he? That is incredible.

I just think that’s super interesting and I’m glad you shared that tidbit with the audience so they could get to know you a little bit better too. And of course, just for everyone listening, I will link to all of Phil’s information, like his website and any of his social media profiles, so you guys can go check him out and get to know him better.

Okay. So when we first met, you know what? I don’t actually remember exactly when we very first connected. I know you joined the coaching program BRB, Building a Referable Business last May, but I think you came into my world months and months before that. Do you remember how you originally found me?

Phil Crowley: Well, I was looking for promising looking business books. I like to listen to books so that when I’m going about driving around or I’m on the elliptical doing exercise, I got your book, Generating Business Referrals Without Asking, which really kind of struck a chord with me.

Because I had been reading books by Robert Cialdini, the Professor of Psychology at the University of Arizona, and was so impressed with your focus on things that he articulated, particularly in his book, Pre-Suasion.

And so, if I had to recommend books for listeners to purchase after they purchase Generating Business Referrals Without Asking, it would be Robert Cialdini’s books.

He’s a very eminent scholarly researcher who has distilled some of his research into really very popular, very, at least to me, very interesting books about the human psyche, how to influence people. That’s his book, Influence. And then how to frame issues in a way that gets people to agree with your point of view.

And when I saw Stacey’s book, I said, wow, this sounds like Robert Cialdini speaking and implementing some of the things he was talking about. And then in our conversation, you happened to mention that you taught a course based on Cialdini’s book. So I can understand now why I saw such a great similarity.

But Cialdini and his scientific study of how to influence people really aligns very, very closely with the approach that you have taken in trying to help all of us influence people in an indirect way to kind of circumvent people’s natural resistance to a direct ask for things to try to want to help us.

And so in my experience, I’ve seen an uptick in the willingness of my referral sources. And my business is primarily driven by referrals. I mean, you don’t go out to hire a lawyer to set up a startup company, to go out and issue a million dollars or two million dollars’ worth of Series A Preferred Stock by necessarily going out to the internet to look for somebody.

Stacey Brown Randall: Right. You’re not googling that.

Phil Crowley: Typically, although we are working towards that because referrals are one of the channels that we will be using, but it’s a very important channel for us and one that I’ve benefited from.

As I mentioned to you, at this point in time, I’m planning a trip to go to Europe with my wife. And on the way back, I’m going to stop at the offices of one of my artificial intelligence company clients. Well, you know, I had been prepping them and using your techniques of thanking them with handwritten notes, which had to go to Scotland to get to them for referrals that they have made in the past.

And on their own volition, they’re at one of the premier accelerators in Scotland. And they got me a gig to do a presentation on what technology companies need to know in order to set a footprint in the United States. And they did that kind of on their own volition. I didn’t specifically ask them to do that.

Stacey Brown Randall: Of course, not asking them because that would be the one thing that I would tell you never to do. But it’s interesting the language that you use, right? Because you’re like, they did it on their own, but that’s not actually true, right?

At the end of the day, this is someone that you had identified as a client that you would love to refer you. They were part of one of the strategies that you were going through within the coaching program called Referring Machines, where you were learning the language, and you were learning what to say in conversations.

And yes, you did send a handwritten card, but that is not all you did, right? We can’t reduce it to just that. But this really becomes part of when you go through my program, it really becomes part of the vernacular of just how you start thinking to talk, right? And the things you say and what you say and how you say it, and it kind of shifts that.

So whereas it felt like they did it on their own because you didn’t have to directly ask them, that’s not true because actually you were planting those seeds all along. And then when that opportunity presented itself, you were the one they were thinking of.

They didn’t think of anybody else. And of course, you got that referral to be able to do that presentation, which I think is fabulous.

I want to go back, though, for a minute, because you talked about Cialdini’s work, and it’s interesting because when I was an adjunct professor, one of his books that I taught from was I taught a persuasion class. It was like strategic communications and part of it was like persuasion. And he is like the father, godfather, grandfather of all things, in my opinion, persuasion in that.

And so, and I was an adjunct professor probably back in 2014, 2015, I did it for a few semesters at a local university here where I got my master’s degree. And it was a big part of my master’s degree program, which I did for a few years prior to becoming an adjunct professor.

And that’s when this business was also like really in its first couple of years. And a lot of that influenced some of the things I was naturally doing, because I think I’d have an undergrad degree in communication as well. So I’ve had a lot of communication stuff poured into me from just an education perspective.

And then it really helped me see how what I was teaching and what I was doing like went back to those principles. And then being an adjunct professor on it, I was like, well, this is just adding gasoline to the fire because this is just going to amplify it for me.

So I do think that’s the piece. And I love that you brought that up because I think that’s the piece that people don’t understand and probably more on me not doing a great job explaining it before they join and before they start working with me.

So I love that you recommended reading my book because that really does kind of give people a framework for how I think and what, I mean it’s it is a teeny tiny slice as you know being in the coaching program now for a year and just renewing. You just renewed today for your second year; you know that that book was actually a tiny slice of ultimately everything you have the opportunity to learn from.

And it is, it’s just a piece of it, but that language piece is so important. And it’s so important for people to understand to use it in the right way and to do it with honor and respect and to take care of people and not use it for manipulation.

I mean, one of the things that drives me crazy is when people like, they take advantage of reciprocity. And they like teach strategies around how you take advantage of that. And I’m like, oh, in my personal opinion, I think that’s the worst thing ever.

So when people come into my program as what you’ve found is the things I ask you to do and to say, the strategies you implement and the tactics you put in place and the processes you build, they feel good, right? You actually want to do them. And then of course you get to see, have results as well.

Stacey Brown Randall: Hey there, pardon the interruption. Would you like to join Phil and the other members of the Building a Referable Business Coaching Program? Well, your first step is to complete an application. Remember, there’s no obligation to join the program just because you submit an application and find out if you’re a fit or not.

But to receive more in-depth information on how the coaching program works, your first step is to submit an application to first find out if you’re a fit and then to make the decision if you’re ready to join.

Now, if you’re not quite ready to apply, that’s okay, but you still want to get the basics in place, then I want you to consider joining my online starter course, which we call Your Next Five Referrals. It is actually all the things I wish you would put into place in your business before you start working with me in my coaching program or at my VIP level.

So links to both the BRB coaching program and Your Next Five Referrals online course are in the show notes page for this episode. And of course, they’re on the homepage of StaceyBrownRandall.com, my main website. Now back to the episode.

Phil Crowley: That’s right, and it’s thoroughly consistent with what I see in the legal realm for successful law firms, as well as in any service business. And a law business is really a service business and it’s focusing on value, providing value to the client.

And people who focus on that are really much more likely to be successful than those who simply focus on sending a bill. And I think that that’s an important part of service businesses generally.

And going back to your discussion of your book, I view your book as kind of taking Dr. Cialdini’s book, Pre-Suasion, and giving us some tactical, practical methodologies. And then particularly the program itself has been very valuable in stressing what I now am learning about marketing generally.

And that is, it has to be systematic, it has to be regular. And I think the discipline of putting together a plan for reaching out to people throughout the year is really part of the intentional aspects of making increasing referrals a part of our regular practice. And I view it as part of marketing.

I mean, people talk a lot about SEO. I think there’s a great deal to be said for that. Also, video podcasts can be a very important part of that. And you’re using that here, as well as referral systems and other avenues and trying to find something that works for your particular style of service business.

But I think that for most businesses, having one of the channels being a robust referrals channel can be a very, very important part of an overall marketing plan and can really leverage some of the other aspects of the plan and be leveraged by aspects of the plan.

So, I mean, it’s very complementary in my view with a total marketing view. I think that’s one of the things that I’ve learned as a legal entrepreneur is really the importance of having an integrated view of marketing generally.

Stacey Brown Randall: And diversified.

Phil Crowley: Yes.

Stacey Brown Randall: I think that’s the other piece of it, being really diversified. I think any sales professional or marketing professional worth their weight is going to tell you, you never rely on one channel. You should always have multiple channels of how clients or prospects can find you, of how they can come into your pipeline to potentially become a client.

And referrals, of course, is one of those and should be robust as possible. I mean, I’m selfish. I teach this stuff. I want referrals to be the biggest piece of your pie with how you bring in clients.

But you’re right. You should have other mechanisms in place for how you bring in clients. Like, I think you’re part of the 30% of the folks in my coaching program that weren’t actually referred to me.

So I’ve got the other percentage, the other 70% that were referred to me, but I’ve got about 30% that come in and they typically come in because somehow they found my book. Sometimes it was recommended to them. So you could quasi-count that as a referral, even I don’t always know who it is. And so sometimes they recommended my book.

Sometimes Amazon just did me a favor and recommended my book as well, which is great. Other times people see me speak or they hear me on somebody else’s podcast. So there are other ways that people come into my business too.

But that 30% that doesn’t come through referral and comes through books or presentations, or other people’s podcasts are just as valuable, of course, as those that do come through referral. So I think that diversification is really important.

Okay, so I want to dive in and talk about some of the success you’ve had, because you have had great success. since being in the program and increasing your referrals. When you first joined BRB, this would have been back in May of 2023.

So you kind of like got your sea legs under you within May and June and kind of kicked everything off and started launching and putting the different strategies in order, like putting them in place, you know, not all at one time, but step by step by step, kind of following your first 90 day strategy stack.

We looked at your data and we knew you averaged about 10 referrals a year that had kind of been like an average for you from that perspective and so we always say we want to double, triple, or quadruple what you have been receiving so we set your first-year goal for 21 referrals.

So you’ve been getting 10, you’re averaging 10, we’re like, okay, let’s get you to 21. And what I love is just from the time, like when you got started in BRB ‘till the end of 2023. So I don’t know, it’s probably close to like six or seven months, maybe it’s closer to seven months. You had 61 referrals.

So you well surpassed that average. And that’s not even a full year. We could pull your numbers from June of last year to June of this year, or May of 2024 this year, as it’s just finishing up while we’re recording this.

But I think that going from setting a goal of 21 and then getting 61 referrals, I know you were at the retreat in December, so we’ve talked about that. It’s like a game changer, right? It’s allowing you to look at your business differently.

So when those referrals first started coming in, well before you know you were going to hit 61 referrals in six or seven months, whatever it was, when those first few referrals started coming in as you’re putting my principles in place, what did that feel like?

Phil Crowley: Well, it felt like you know, I finally found a way to open up the spigot. You know, it’s so frustrating to have the capabilities that we have. I’ve got myself and three really experienced lawyers who work with me. And not to have enough work to keep everybody really busy is a frustrating thing and trying to figure out what to do.

And after employing the principles that you have articulated, and I think that another aspect of that is the weekly Q&A meetings. Because some of the other participants are asking questions that I wouldn’t even have thought to ask.

And it’s always interesting to hear about the practical aspects of techniques that people are using, rather than having everything really theoretical, to have detailed programs, and then to have your input on how best to couch our communications to, as you like to say, plant those referral seeds.

Which is really Cialdini’s framing of an issue, so that at a point in the future, people will use that frame to make a decision, the decision being to say, “Oh, by the way, you know, you should talk to Phil Crowley.”

Stacey Brown Randall: Yeah, he will solve all your problems. Yeah.

Phil Crowley: Well, in a certain, you know, because we have to be targeted.

Stacey Brown Randall: You say that just like an attorney, Phil. You’re like, only life sciences and only technology. You know what I meant. You know what I meant.

Phil Crowley: Yes, I know. But I like to stress that, I tell people, I’m an attorney, but, you know, I really like people. And sometimes they don’t get that.

But people tend to have the view of the litigator shark, you know, in the courtroom or what they see on television. And really what we are is strategic business planners that help companies negotiate through the minefields of getting to the marketplace.

Stacey Brown Randall: Yes, absolutely. And I love watching the success that you’ve had. And I remember you like saying early on the first couple of months in the program, you’re like, Oh my gosh, it’s like starting to work. You’re like, I’m seeing it happen.

And at the end of the day, that’s just allowing you to work with more people and help more people, which has driven right back to the why you’re doing what you’re doing.

And I think that is probably one of the most rewarding things that I get to do when I help somebody is, yes, I want you to come into any of my programs or any of the levels of working with me and I want you to get the success and the results that you want, because I know that’s how you like consider the program from its ROI perspective if it was worth it.

But deeper than that is I also know when those referrals start rolling in and you start bringing on new clients that are referred to you, you’re actually helping more people do what it is that you are the expert at doing.

And that is such a joy from somebody who overcame myself, overcoming a business failure to now having a successful business, knowing that I’m helping other business owners like you, like really be able to succeed and help other people and you help entrepreneurs.

So that’s even like a special little place in my heart from that perspective and you help other businesses. It’s like, it’s just keeping that whole entrepreneurial life cycle kind of piece going. Like I’m helping you and you were helping them and it just all kind of comes back around, which is awesome.

So I love what you have shared about the program and it working and your results that you’re having and why referrals are so important to your business. Not the only thing, but why they are so important to your business as well.

I’d love to know, if there’s a listener listening right now to our conversation, and they’ve been thinking about joining BRB and they’ve kind of been on the fence and they’re like, do I want to join the coaching program? What would you say to them that would help them get off the fence? What would you want them to know about BRB?

Phil Crowley: I think that being a member of BRB will expose you to the practical application of very powerful psychological principles that you can’t really effectively learn in theory. You really need to see how they are applied and see how other people actually apply them. And it’s one of those things where the experience of going through the program is so much better than trying to figure everything out on your own.

And to have somebody there as a guide, Stacey, to help you figure out the optimal ways of doing what you’re doing so that you’re not doing something and just praying or hoping that it will work, but you’re maximizing the chances that the work that you do in outreach will be successful.

And so that’s the reason why I think was it’s so valuable, why I’ve re-upped for the second year, because I think I have more to learn in terms of making this a regular and systematic part of how we do our marketing at Crowley Law.

Stacey Brown Randall: Yeah, I think that is, could not have said it better myself. I think it’s the idea that, and that’s the one thing I found when I read different books like some of the ones that you mentioned and some other ones that I’ve read about referrals, I was missing the tactical though, but what do I do? How do I take what you said and put it into those practical, tactical application points?

And you know this because now you’ve watched and gone through a number of my trainings. You know I teach very much step-by-step because my brain is linear. For better or for worse, if whether that’s a strength or weakness my brain thinks linearly.

It’s like okay here and then here and then here so that’s also how I teach. But when you think like that, theory is great and understanding concepts and connecting dots and all those things and strategic thinking like those are things definitely that any business owner has to be able to do.

So I can do those things. But when it comes down to teaching somebody else, it’s got to be tactical. And that has to come from a step by step. Because if not, you can’t put theory, as you said, into practice, you need that application.

And that’s what I found missing out there with everything else that I saw. I was like, okay, thanks for that. You’re right, I should do that. how do I do that? And everything inside BRB is the how you do it and what it looks like and then how you keep it going.

So, well, you have been a pleasure to have in the coaching program. I always love it when you show up on the Q&A calls, you have such thoughtful questions. And then, of course, it was wonderful to meet in person at the retreat.

I don’t get to meet everybody in person, so it was wonderful to meet in person in Charlotte when you came to our retreat last year for the BRB members. And I just want to say thank you for trusting me with a part of your business because it is my absolute joy. And thank you, of course, for being here on the podcast today.

Phil Crowley: My pleasure as well, Stacey.

Stacey Brown Randall: I am so glad to share this conversation that Phil and I had with you. It’s really important for me that you hear from the people who made the decision to invest in my program and to hear the results that they’re getting.

Hearing direct from them, I think, is no better way for you to understand, okay, this is real. And this could be the reality for me and my business as well, which is why I love inviting my clients on to share their thoughts about referrals and then the strategies that they learned from me and implemented. And then of course, the success that they had.

Not everybody has super-fast success. For some, it takes time to build. For others, they have more success than they can anticipate in 90 days. Everybody’s journey is a little bit different, and it has everything to do with where you’re starting from.

But one of the things I love best about the coaching program, BRB, Building a Referable Business, is that I have designed it to meet you where you are. Now, that doesn’t mean you come into the program and we set up what you’re going to do and then you ghost me and yourself, right?

You still got to do the work if you ultimately want to have the success that you hear Phil talking about or anybody else that I’ve had on the podcast talking about their success as well.

So it’s really important to me that people hear from others to know, hey, there are real people in Stacey’s program and they’re having success. And guess what? Other business owners are making the time to do the work as well.

And I think that is very, very valuable. So that’s why I wanted to share Phil’s journey with you. So I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.

Alright, again, the show notes page for this episode can be found at StaceyBrownRandall.com/322. And it is also where you will find all the ways to connect with Phil.

We’re back with another great episode next week created with you and your needs in mind. Until then, you know what to do, my friend, take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Bye for now.